31 Mar 2001 14:25

Dear Ken, I have just found something interesting (I quote: "Devon Protestation returns of 1641, Marychurch parish before 1832)

Andrew Newcombe
Peter Newcombe
Anthony Newcombe at sea
William  Newcombe at Sea

This is all it says so it could be we should be looking  at Marychurch Parish could Anthony or William be the father of Andrew 1641(sic) How would this fit in with your dates of capt Andrew.        Maurice
 

Ken Newcombe replied:

Maurice,

My theory is that the record from Newton Abbot "1639  24 Nov. chr. Andrew Nucombe s. Thomas " is Andrew b1640 circa,
therefore his father was Thomas and mother probably Joan from the marriage record: 1658 3 Jul. m. Robert Gavericke &
Joan Newcombe (widow) also in Newton Abbot.

However Captain Andrew b 1618c is from the Torquay record and Marychurch is right beside it so this could be Captain
Andrew. Torquay records show:

Christenings:
  7 Oct   1638    Grace Newcombe   d. William & Ann
10 May 1649     Suzanna Newcomb d. Andrew & Suzan

Burials (searched 1637-1707):
23 Apr 1652      Suzan, wife of Andrew Newcomb
15 Aug 1661      Peter Newcome

It appears that William and Peter may also be the same as your 1641 record.

I am glad you found this. Can you tell me more about what this record "Devon Protestation returns of 1641" is all about?
K.N.

31 Mar 2001 14:25

Maurice Newcombe replied:

Ken  the  information is extract from a book by T.L.Stoate and I take that Peter copied out the Newcombes 37 Parishes. not every Parish is mentioned some Parishes have four Newcombes some have one all men no woman. I don't know were Stoate got the information from. The parish of  St Marychurch is on a peninsula with Tormoham. I am afraid that is all I know?? you send a letter to the record office in Exeter to see if they have any more information/you can rent a researcher for so much a hour Idon;t how much a hour they charge now the last time it was about twenty pounds a hour, or if you are a member of the Devon Family History Soc £12 a yearYou get four Magazines a year.  Maurice
 

17 Mar 2001 11:08

I have these notes on the possible origin of the two Andrews:
An Andrew Newcombe of Bridestowe, Devon (Banks Genealogical Collection).Charles E. Banks (1937-25, 27-28) lists three towns in Devon for him, Paignton (next to Torbay), Tor Mohun (now part of Torquay) and Thrushelton (9 miles east of Launceston, Cornwall). He may have been a son of Charles Newcomb (d. 1631) who had four sons: Robert, Francis, Thomas and Elyas who died in Devon.

Best wishes, Dana Edgecomb, nighthawk@watchic.net

Hi Ken;
Here is the promised email.From "Devonians and New England Settlement Before 1650", R. D. Brown, The Devonshire Association for the Advancement of Science, Literature, and Art: Report and Transactions, 95(1963) pp. 219-243.

p. 237  Paignton, Newcomb, Andr. To Boston, Mass.   Top. Dict., Banks MSS.
p. 240  Thrushelton, Newcomb, Andr. To I. of Shoals, Me.   Top. Dict., Banks MSS.
p. 241  Tor Mohun (now part of Torquay), Newcomb, Andr. To I. of Shoals, Me.  Top. Dict, Banks, MSS.

Sources:
Banks MSS.=Chas. E. Banks, MSS in Library of Congress. Top. Dict.=Topographical Dictionary of 2,885 English Emigrants to New  England 1620-1650, Boston, 1937 and Baltimore, 1957.

The surviving Devon wills are in two collections: Oswyn Murray Collection, Wills, Central Library, Devon, Filmed at Exeter. E-FIT, No. 11.

Moger Wills (Olive Moger, collected 1921-1941) Filmed 1973, Devon Central Library, Exeter, Vol. 19.

The Moge wills were actual wills collected from individuals private collections after WWII. The Murray wills are abstracts made before WWII.

Each of these has several reels, so one would have to pick out the reels that apply to Newcombe. They have both been filmed by the LDS.

Best wishes, Dana Edgecomb
 

Ken Newcombe replied:

Dana,

If I understand it, a "Topographical Dictionary of 2,885 English Emigrants to New England" by Chas.E Banks contains the three entries. Do you know if there are sources and dates included? The Torquay mention is likely the one I feel is Captain Andrew though this record has Andrew going to Isle of Shoals which is more likely Lt. Andrew and the Boston Andrew being from Paignton. Paignton is only five miles south of Torquay. Thrushelton is 27 miles to the west of Torquay.

"An Andrew Newcombe of Bridestowe, Devon (Banks Genealogical Collection)." Your previous E-mail mentioned an Andrew in Bridestowe, is this included also? Bridestowe is near Thrushelton.

The wills would seem to be very limited in number but I understand an Index has survived. I would like to find the sources for these records! K.N.
 
 

17 Mar 2001 08:57

Thank's Ken, very well done. I would suggest that you discount any spelling variations. I have old documents relating to my Childerston ancestors where the name is spelled three different ways in the same document. The things to investigate from here are:
1. How complete is the IGI extraction for the churches in Devon? I know that in Spain you will find one church's records completely extracted while the church across the square has not been touched. AFAIK, the only way to get this information is to check the old LDS catalog CDs at the FHC. It's extraction status is no on the website.
2. What other records exist. Property records, militia rolls, manorial records, and particularly probate. If either Andrew transferred land to a relative after moving to New England, that would nail it.
3. Has anyone see a copy of the recent "The Newcombes of Inwardleigh" ? (Is Jud Newcombe on this list?) If not, we need to get him involved.

"Donald R. Newcomb" DRNewcomb@attglobal.net
 

Ken Newcombe replied:
Donald,

The spelling is based on signatures (at least according to BM), I ignore written spelling variation by any but the two Andrews. I also consider no single point of evidence any where near conclusive in itself. It is the sum of the evidence that makes a case. I challenge anyone to prove the Devon suspects are not our Andrews. I will gladly publish and investigate all negative evidence.

1 - I do not have accurate figures for the completeness of the IGI at the moment. Nevertheless the number of IGI extracts is certainly significant judging by the number of Newcombs that I show from 1600-1640 (In Devon alone 65 John Newcombs). The fact there are so few Andrews relative to other names helps bolster the case.
2 - Working on this currently.
3 - I have a copy of the book "The Newcombes of Inwardleigh" and I am in touch with MOL Newcombe.
K.N.

24 Mar 2001 09:04 PM

Ken Newcombe replied:
Donald,

I have worked on an answer to your first question. According to a list of IGI batch numbers for Christenings in Devon parishes (updated in 1999), of 487 total Parishes, 272(56%) have had records extracted, 215(44%) have not. 255(52%) of these parishes have records starting in 1650 or earlier, with 157(32%) of them earlier than 1601.

The statistics for Marriage batch numbers are almost the same as for the above Christenings

This data was extracted from a list of Devon Batch numbers. I imported the data into an Excel spreadsheet for sorting and calculated the percentages. I am checking with the author as to the completeness this data.

Data from website: http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/mjcurtis/IGI_bap.htm
K.N.
 

17 Mar 2001 10:04

"Donald R. Newcomb" wrote:

The problem is that you can't prove a negative. You have to prove by some  tangible connection that the suspect is the same  person. Essentially we have  to be able to "convict" them of being identical, at least by a preponderance of the evidence. The problem is that it is harder to prove that they are the same on different sides of the Atlantic than it is when the are two counties removed. Perfect example is when John Smith bequeaths his land in Suffolk to  his sister Jane Doe. You have the birth/baptism records of John and Jane Smith and her marriage to Fred Doe. You know that the same lot of land was mentioned in Jane's will. That is a lead-pipe cinch of a proof. We can't  argue Newcomb is a "rare surname". There has to be allowances that there might be more Andrews out there undiscovered. I'm particularly concerned about records that might have been destroyed in the Blitz. The Devon port cities were heavily bombed. Having said all that, I am very encouraged by your research and if you need anyone to order and read microfilms from the LDS archives, count me in.

Donald R. Newcomb DRNewcomb@attglobal.net
 
 

Ken Newcombe replied:

Donald,
Thanks for the reply. Your contributions have been appreciated. You can't prove a negative but you might disprove it. I encourage people to search Devon records after 1663 or so. If one or both Andrew possibles are found still in Devon then no more time should be wasted on the one(s) found!

The old wills were destroyed in WW2 as you suggested but a will index exists I understand.

Thanks for the offer to search film. I would ask that you confirm the two extracted records from the LDS and search them carefully for the surnames Cox, Gavericke and Newcomb. Also for anyone with the first name Andrew or Joan.

"Parish Register of Wolborough (Newton Abbot)", 1558-1653 (typescript, 1958). Not indexed film number: 917202 Items 4-5

"Entries of Baptisms, Burials and marriages in the Register of Tormaham (Torquay)", 1637 -1743. (transcript 1941). Herbert Wood Editor. film number: 917544

I will publish the transcripts I have today on my site and you will see why these names are relevant. K.N.

17 Mar 2001 18:22

  Ken,
  On your "origins" page you list the Christenings:

  Emley Lucomb Aug 1630
  Mary Newcombe 23 Oct 1631
  Elizabeth Newcombe 29 Sep 1633
  Katherine Newcombe 21 Sep 1634
  Andrew Nucombe 24 Nov 1639
  William Newcombe 17 May 1646

Do you know for a fact that Emley was written LUCOMB, and that it wasn't a  transcription error?  The reason I ask is that several months ago I was going            through early port  records at the Univ of Virginia and ran across a Capt Lucomb (I think it was Andrew Lucomb) more than once (in addition to a few  Newcombs). Of course, it caught my eye, but I dismissed it as being a mere coincidence. Now you've got me thinking that it might have been the earliest mention of Capt Andrew in America. I'll have to go back & look again. I'll report what I find.

Brad Wilson BMacLiam@aol.com http://members.aol.com/bmacliam/newcomb/index.html
 

Ken Newcombe replied:

Brad,

I have a third generation transcript and it is "Lucomb" on it. I hope to get an original copy but I understand it is very difficult to read (faded) according to the parish clerk. I feel it is most likely an error in the original 1600s entry but I am aware of the need to "close this door" if possible. I would be interested in posting this "early port record" if you can verify it. BM claimed that Andrew may have landed at Virginia first. In any event we know he sailed there from New England according to BM.  K.N.

3
 
 

    created March 17, 2001
    revised August 24, 2002
kennewcombe@cogeco.ca

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